(no subject)

[noahgibbs]

A couple of years ago (October, 2002), I wrote up a summary of my experiences learning to dance. I did more after this, and my technique improved, but I basically stand by everything here. I didn't post it then because I didn't want to spend hours answering the same questions about it over and over. I'm no longer frequenting the same social groups. So now I'm posting it.

-----------------------------------

I've finally become convinced that there are a lot of people out there, guys mostly, who don't dance, and who don't exactly dislike dancing. They intensely dislike learning to dance.

After an abortive couple of attempts at learning "normal" dancing, I learned the basics of Irish step dancing at The Starry Plough. That was annoying for a few of the same reasons, but overall I had a much better time with it. When you're doing Irish step dancing, the teachers don't really assume you know what it's supposed to look like (go, John!). They certainly don't assume you've done it before, or that you know what it feels like, or that you've done three similar kinds of dancing before. They treat you like it's a genuinely new, unfamiliar thing. It puts people like me on the same footing as "normal" people. I can see why Irish dance gets a reputation for only weirdos doing it. Regular people have as hard a time doing that as I have doing ballroom dancing. Well, except the instruction's better when you're doing Irish. So they avoid it entirely.

There's a similar category... Dances like ballroom dancing, the ones with an established rhythm, specific kinds of songs you can do them to, and known steps, are by their nature a learned skill. You don't exit the womb for the first time with a knowledge of the box-step waltz, the samba or the foxtrot. On the other hand, whatever the intended audience is for dance lessons, they are assumed to have a pretty good knowledge of what the finished dance is supposed to look like. Everywhere I've been (Starlight Ballroom, Gaskell's, PEERS, Friday Night Waltz, Stanford dance classes) also assumes a working knowledge of several related dances. The lessons are supposed to catapult you from having a vague understanding of dancing to knowing the basic steps. Or they can take you from that second category to the point of knowing a more reasonable selection of steps. Fair enough.

I hadn't expected the "working knowledge of related dances" bit. It just seemed unreasonable that to learn any one dance you first need to know three more. But at the Waltz lessons I attended (FNW) they explained most steps in terms of the same step in other dances. Plus, exactly three out of each set of ten dances they played were actually taught there. Yes, I counted. I had nothing else to do for seven dances out of each ten, so I got to frequently ask "how many dances until I can do another one?". Normally I'd be fine with that since I've made a lifetime habit of striking up friendships with the dregs and rejects of social groups. Outcasts tend to be the most interesting. Unfortunately, a voluntary-attendance dance lesson attracts those who already dance and are trying to improve, and those who don't dance and have just discovered that the lesson doesn't change that. Which is to say, those that support the elitist dynamic, and those that are failing at it. I'm something of a dreg- and outcast-connoisseur, so dance-lesson-dregs are just not inspiring, even in California.

"Elitist dynamic?" Well, yes. Settings that focus on dancing are by their nature focused on a single skill-based activity. "We're all here to have fun" is something you tell beginners, and if you think they believe it you haven't looked at their faces. The higher-ranking folks (those who dance better) tell it to the beginners. That's because those dancers, by virtue of being high-ranked (which in turn is by virtue of being good dancers), are the elite. Of course they're just there to have fun -- they're in the inside clique and have nowhere much further to go. Well, mostly. If you didn't hear them say they were just in it for the fun, and only paid attention to their behavior, you might think they were acting quite competitively. But their advice proves conclusively that they're not. But hey, that's a different "dance venues suck, and don't plan to stop sucking" rant.

I know this already, so you don't have to say it -- I'm just not getting it. I'm aware of that. I've paid to find that out often enough. I mean, that's what dance lessons are, the chance to learn several steps, discover that they only marginally help, and be made aware again that I'm "just not getting it." Very true. Deep. Profound. Philosophical, even. You've successfully made it clear that you're ahead of me in the "getting it" realm. Well done. Now go help some other poor sod realize his faults before I get genuinely angry.

Those of you that have met me in person are probably aware that I'm a tolerant guy. Not 100% of the time, but I'm pretty tough to nettle. "Apathetic" describes me better than "tempermental". I'm aware that even when my dance technique is good (and it sometimes is) and even though I can successfully replicate dance steps (pretty well, actually) and even lead quite tolerably (yup), there's something I fundamentally don't get. I mean, besides how to not take big steps and still not be run over by any of the four couples surrounding me. But there's more than one of you out there that's seen me driven into an absolute rage (well, okay, by my standards) by dance instruction. I can go to dance, and with the (partial) exception of the Starry Plough, I spend the early part of the night tense and the later part of the night wanting to swear and kick things.

Yes, I'm aware that's not the point of dancing, so I obviously don't get it. You're very smart, now shut up.

With that said: I know why I'm stressed. For instance, I spend the majority of the "dance time" sitting out and waiting for something I can dance to. I used to try and ask people to dance beforehand, but so far they ditch me (after accepting, like) about half the time. Yes, only counting people I know. Yes, including you, you and you. Yes, those times *do* count. So instead I just join the mad scramble to try and find somebody to dance with after the music starts. That means I switch between a nasty stressful situation and waiting for the same nasty stressful situation. If I complain I'll get advice ("just ask somebody ahead of time") which, if taken, would make my situation even worse.

Then there's the actual dancing, which is presumably the part of the whole business that's enjoyable. I try to enjoy it. That's when the couple behind us hits us. Of course, that also happens if my technique is sloppy, or if I'm not watching, or if I don't take large steps, or if I take *too* large steps (my partner will tend to complain, rightfully, regardless of step size since they're either being run into or being flung along the floor or both). I was reminded that in basically rotational dances like the cross-step waltz, not rotating the full 180 each time has the same effect. "Don't take such large steps, you don't have to turn all the way around each time" is very common advice, and I get literally physically slammed every time I try to follow it on the dance floor. Here's to negative reinforcement. These things never work with me, I just wind up conditioned to salivate every time somebody gives me advice that'll make things worse. Did I say "salivate"? I meant "clench and unclench my fists".

To be fair, the problems aren't all caused by other couples hitting me. I hit them when I'm not paying enough attention. And then there's actually trying to remember the steps and lead them in time (I do that in between dodging). And I learned that "just keep dancing, dammit!" isn't always safe advice when I screw up since sometimes you're supposed to stop instead, though apparently usually not. I'm hoping to purge that from my memory and claim ignorance, repeatedly if necessary.

I suppose I'm lucky this is all for fun. I may be routinely slammed into when I do it wrong, and I may risk scorn and ridicule, and there may be a wide range of ways to injure myself or (worse) be neglectful in a way that injures somebody else. But at least, thank God, this is all for fun and there aren't any real penalties. Presumably at actual dance competitions they have snipers and land mines, plus of course the judges. I never plan to go to one, so I hope never to find out.

This is the Bay. You see guys putting out an unusual of effort to attract women here, plus I hang out in pervert communities where that's often even more true. Yet despite large amounts of attractive female pressure to the contrary, a lot of guys hang back and say "I don't dance." Aside from the couple of dances that I mostly know, that's what I do. And had I known what it would take to learn those, I probably wouldn't have learned. I can't blame "I don't dance" guys, because learning really sucks.

Shouldn't I just learn dances that don't have specific steps and involve thrashing more-or-less randomly? Well, other than the fact that the teaching consists only of the phrase "just act naturally" and assumes you already know it, sure. I can mostly do those, sort of, or at least not embarrass myself more than average. I don't know. I've only been in locations where it was useful to know that about four times, ever. I don't think I want to go looking for a new bunch of places to dance. I *really* don't want to learn a bunch of new dance stuff, given my previous experiences. And if you want to say "just relax and do it", please do so to my face. I will smack you, and that's easier in person. You'll probably insist on bringing up dancing first (just so I have some clue what you're talking about) so I'll need the stress relief.

So why don't I just stop dancing, but do it quietly? We'll ignore the actual reasons to dance. We'll ignore the bit about attracting female attention and pretend that that's not a reason. We'll also ignore the bit about socializing. And the one about occasions where everybody's embarrassed anyway. There are some really nasty things I could get into that are some combination of those, but I'm whistling and putting my fingers in my ears, as it were... Not that I've, like, stewed over this or anything.

No, the problem with just becoming an "I don't dance" guy again is that friends and girlfriends will attempt to violently convert you. If you say, "I don't dance", they'll start with "oh, come on, everybody's doing it", move through "everybody looks ridiculous, you'll fit in", "if you never start you'll never be good at it", feint toward "oh, come on, it'll be fun" and abandon you after "just act natural, it'll be fine", at least if they're not pushy.

If they are pushy, dissuading them takes longer. I basically need to present something very much like this post, bitterness and all, of at least this length, before they'll consider the possibility that anybody might not want to tolerate months or years of the nastiness to learn to dance. Or to put it another way, "they're just shy", "they'd like it if they tried it", "they're worried about being embarrassed" or a number of other things. I used to try hard not to swear or hit things at times like that. Maybe now I'll just keep a two-minute litany memorized to put people off for a moment, slip out a back exit, and be ready to send a link to this entry afterward.

So why do I say there are people who might like to dance, eventually, but who hate to learn it? My attempts to learn aren't unique to me. I'm not the only guy out there who might like to learn a dance but doesn't already tango, cross-step waltz, mazurka and polka. I doubt I'm the only guy who finds it frustrating that it'll take months and many lessons in several separate places, at the very least, to learn even one of those -- it's not like they teach them all at the same place, or teach a reasonable variety of steps in any one place. Or like it's easy to practice regularly (yes, yes, I know, sure it is, other than scheduling, finding partners, getting any useful form of instruction and generally dealing with the various frustrations. Other than that, it's a cakewalk. Now fuck off). I'd say "well, at least without paying too much for private lessons" if I hadn't already tried that. Private lessons don't work decently either, they just cost a lot more.

There are guys that know how to dance. Some day I'll find one who can tell me how to do it. He won't actually *do* so, but it'd be satisfying to meet somebody who *could*. I know a few guys that have been to good lessons, always outside California. The lessons aren't around any more anyway, or have lost their decent instructor, or otherwise become unavailable, even if I were going to move to Oregon or Massachusetts for them.

Sure, true, you don't need lessons to learn. I mean, other than the fact that if you're a guy, you're leading, so you need to actually know the steps. And you'll never know if you do it wrong, or you can't do it at all. Learning dancing out of a book isn't much of an option. Are there ways of doing this that don't involve sleeping with an instructor? Some day I'll meet somebody that's done it without that step. I'm told such people exist. The people telling me all have financial incentive to do so.

Is sleeping with the instructor a problem? Only sort of. It means you chew through a lot of otherwise-enjoyable time with somebody you like. Instead of actually sleeping with them, talking to them, or actually doing something fun, you're doing something very time-consuming and frustrating (those of you dating skilled dance instructors who don't get frustrated are hallucinating an entire human being, so please don't bother to respond). It's not that I haven't tried that approach, it's just that it's been so bad so far that I don't want to keep pissing on my relationships that way. I can mess up my relationships in ways I at least get something out of. Yeah, I know, if I'd stop bitching and moaning, stop being distracted trying to memorize stuff, stop paying attention to stuff like people running into me, stop being frustrated at being told "just do it naturally" and just do it naturally (i.e. "right") this wouldn't bother me. Fuck off. "If you'd just do it right it wouldn't frustrate you" isn't an answer, and if you claim it is then I'll ask why you don't just learn Calculus that way -- "just stop making mistakes and it's easy."

So why the venomous post? Partly I just feel like getting this all written down somewhere. People ask me why I don't dance, and they have no patience with an answer. What they mean is "you should try dancing". I have. Thanks. It makes me crazy and makes me want to hit things, partially because people are hitting me the whole time I do it. Partly so that anybody that reads this will STOP SAYING "just do it naturally". There are all kinds of things people say that about. It's always a useless thing to say. I've never gotten anything out of having it said to me, I've never seen anybody get anything out of having it said to them. "Relax"? Sure. That means something. "Just do it naturally?" No. Stop saying that. Stop saying it now, and never say it again. It's the first thing people try, because it's, y'know what they naturally first try. Then they try other things, such as whatever they're doing now. If a particular dance was something you do by just doing whatever comes naturally, there wouldn't be more than one way to dance to a particular beat, now would there? There wouldn't be a such thing as a tango, there'd just be people doing random shit to roughly the same rhythm. If you assume that saying "step back and do what comes naturally" gives you a mazurka you've never thought about what you're saying. Well, assuming you're not a sadist.

That and people don't usually seem to understand why guys don't want to learn to dance. That'd be because for most of us (guys), learning is only slightly less unpleasant than tearing out our liver with a fork. Most guys never do it, and it's something that increases your chances to get laid. Think about that. It says a lot. I'm one of the lucky ones, I have a tolerable memory, decent coordination and the ability to move smoothly. There's a whole set of rants available that don't apply to me. There's a whole level of nastiness to this that I've gotten to skip entirely. My problems doing this are nothing special. It's worse for a lot of people. Can you blame them for avoiding the whole thing?

Comments

[plymouth.livejournal.com]

as a huge fan of goth dancing and an only really really occasional participant in actual structured dancing, I would never tell someone "just act naturally". what I WOULD tell them is to relax and observe people around them and try to mimic the things they think look cool. if they have no feel for rythm this will be impossible for them. clubs that have mirrors? I like those. I've used them to perfect some of my moves. I would rather they not be there all the time though, since I can get so into watching myself that it is actually distracting. I really like goth dancing because it doesn't require a partner - a good 95% of the time I dance alone. And yet I greatly prefer to be dating boys who know how to dance. Why? Well, that 5% is important to me. But moreso - I like to watch them. But I've been lucky, I guess - my most recent three boyfriends were all dancers, with varying levels of skill. Even the one who was pretty awful at it wasn't shy about just going out there and doing it anyway and I appreciated that a lot. He knew he wasn't great at it but he didn't care.

When only 3 of 10 dances at the plough are dances I know I am perfectly content with that, but then I more than you am happy to just observe when all of my friends are dancing - I don't require constant activity and/or socialization. I haven't done a lot in terms of really structured dance lessons. I guess I took a ballroom dance class in junior high - then they CERTAINLY didn't expect you to already know three other kinds of dance. Maybe that's the problem - all these people are the elite dancers are the ones who got a head start back then. Just a guess. When someone says "it's like *that step* in *that kind of dance*" I'm never shy about saying "hey, I don't know that, could you explain it again some other way?"

Of course here I am explaining all the reasons learning dance doesn't scare me and yet I've been talking about learning swing dancing for months now and still haven't done a damned thing about it. There must be some other reasons, because the reasons YOU stated for why learning to dance sucks aren't the things that are stopping me... but something is.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Hey.

I just wanted to point out that assuming that your experience of dance is universal among guys is, well, a little unfair.

On the MIT Ballroom Team, we often saw men join the team because their girlfriend wanted them to, or because they wanted to meet girls. Half of them would last a month before they stopped showing up to lessons. The other half would get hooked on the dancing itself and stick around because they loved dancing. Some of them even eventually got girlfriends out of the deal. ;)

It sounds like you've had a slew of incompetent teachers, and I'm sorry to hear that. It also sounds like these events, FNW etc., are overcrowded and not very beginner friendly -- something which can be survived while you get better, but is ALWAYS unpleasant.

I've certainly, in my time, been the person on the sidelines wishing someone would ask me to dance or wishing I could find someone to dance with. It's no fun, but because I love the dancing itself it was worth the wait, for me.

It is interesting to note that although the ballroom I speak of is very different from the type you have been dealing with, they have enough in common in this context that they can be discussed synonymously. And it is possible that my experience learning ballroom was particularly unusual because it was the *MIT* ballroom dance team, where they assume that everyone is incompetent and ignorant of all dance stuff. It was a very supportive environment, and most events were lessons and practice, rather than most events being actual dances. We had a rookie coordinator, designated to be the mommy for beginners, and zie was in charge of helping us find practice partners and competition partners, etc.

I'm guessing that its too late for you... you've been burned a few too many times and no matter how supportive an environment you stumbled upon, you just wouldn't be interested (which I support... part of the joy of dancing is dancing with someone who enjoys it as much as you -- not an unwilling victim). But they do exist. Really! :)

[tshuma]

I would agree that the FNW environment is NOT rank beginner friendly, in general. People smile and welcome beginners, there are rudimentary lessons, but the reality is that an hour is hardly enough time to take someone off the street and teach them a single rotational dance, then set them loose in a highly chaotic (and often over-crowded) dance floor with skill levels in every strata represented.

They do three different styles/tempos of waltz, salsa, polka, cha cha, tango, mazurka and schottische, plus one or two other specifically choreographed dances, some of which are "taught" quickly just before doing the dance. Certainly one can go knowing only one type of waltz and in three hours dance only four or six times. It can be extremely frustrating.

One of the best things I have found for working with brand new male dancers (who will naturally be expected to lead) is--if they are willing to take the time--to find another lead to take turns dancing with them. Then the pressure for them to lead while learning the sound, feel, and basic patterns of the dance is off, and they can understand a little of what helps them learn.

There are also a bunch of really good partnering/lead-follow exercises that teach control of the body. Some of the people who instruct at the FNW teach a several week series that can take the time to go through such things because they are not being pressured to get these people on the dance floor able to participate at least a little in under an hour.

I suspect angelbob is too embittered by his experiences to find any of this useful or interesting (in terms of trying again). Ah, well. It is a loss to the dance community.

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to point out that assuming that your experience of dance is universal among guys is, well, a little unfair.

That's why I phrased it as "there are a group of guys who...". I've met them, talked to them, and heard of more that I don't personally know, which justifies my actual claim, though not the claim you attribute to me.

[monkey587.livejournal.com]

I had a bit of swing dancing instruction back in '99 before I moved to California, and it was generally good in that A) the basics were simple and B) the instructor didn't assume you already knew anything. That being said, I was basically useless because I'd never danced before and it was completely unnatural for me. I'd say I enjoyed it about 20% of the time, when I'd get paired up with someone who knew what she was doing and knew how to not get knocked over when I moved the wrong foot by mistake. My ex can dance, but wasn't much more proficient in swing than I was, so practicing together didn't seem to be terribly useful... We just managed to learn how not to trip over our livingroom furniture. I did enjoy it at times, though.

I am now getting more and more deeply involved with irish music, and am feeling like I'm willing to try dancing again. This is partly because I know a lot of people who enjoy it, and partly because there's a wickedly cute irish girl involved with dancing around here, although I suspect she's about 10 years older than me and possibly married.

But for the most part, dancing doesn't appeal to me because for me, since I've never gotten to be good at it, I spend more time being an uncoordinated goon stepping on people and/or knocking them over.

Finally, similar to the "just do it naturally" thing, I object to the "no sense of rhythm" phrase that dancers use. I actually have quite a well developed sense of rhythm, and can feel/explain/execute rhythms that most people can't. I just lack the ability to coordinate coarse motor movements rapidly. The belittling I've received because of it has helped to lessen my interest in learning how to overcome it.

I suspect I am an anomoly

[ironangel]

No, the problem with just becoming an "I don't dance" guy again is that friends and girlfriends will attempt to violently convert you.

my response to "I don't X." is usually a)a genuine interest in why not *hey, it's good to know your partner and then b) OK, dear.

then again, I'm abby normal and we all knew that.

I would really dislike it if someone tried to violently convert me, too.

maybe it's the sexual subtext of dancing - two bodies, close together, moving together - that makes some people believe everyone MUST want to dance. me, I'd rather the sex. ;)

Re: I suspect I am an anomoly

[tshuma]

I'd rather the sex. ;)

...we just consider it foreplay. =)

[pickledkiki.livejournal.com]

I began dancing as a young girl, while I still had a straight, asexual body. I took ballet lessons and jazz lessons and I loved moving my body and learning how to shape it and use it and be graceful. Then I got involved with gymnastics and I realized that all anyone else wanted was for me to show off what I knew, not just do it for the fun of it. I was -paying- someone to use me as competition. I quit, and I hit puberty, and now I'm more than a little clutzy. I'm a choir singer, so you'd think I could keep a rhythm, but remarkably I seem unable to have the presence of mind to maintain one for more than a few measures. What formal dancing I've tried, I find I do not enjoy because there's too much thought there, too much challenge. Choreographed dances rely on memory and patterns and the other person ... and even after dancing the two step, a remarkably easy little dance, for several hours, I was still missing a step every now and then -- just enough to annoy a partner. Then there's the trouble that dancing is generally a public performance. I think it takes a specific type of person to enjoy that on top of everything else. As for me, I prefer the flailing method of dancing. I've tried explaining that I cannot dance, and have gotten angry at people who dragged me out to dance and got frustrated with me. *shrug*
At least for me, it's not a huge part of my life so avoiding it isn't a problem. Except at weddings, and then half of the folks can't dance anyways.

Most dance instruction sucks

[lrc.livejournal.com]

I often point out that I am living proof that anyone can learn to dance. I grew up with the nickname "Spastic Colen". LRC really stands for Larry Rhythmically Challenged. And I've had effectively no music training, at least until I started going to dance workshops where they explained musicality.

I've posted some essays over at about dancing.

One thing that took me way too long to discover is how much superior private dance lessons are to group classes. Especially group classes where there are more people dancing my part than the other. I have an abysmal memory, so I hate it when teachers throw long sequences of steps at me, so that rather than expending my energy on getting the moves into my muscle memory, I'm desperately trying to remember what comes next.

I've not really figured out how to teach dance yet. It's something I think of. My friend Leslie Gordon teaches some great Salsa and tango classes at the Bechtel International house at Stanford, where everybody both leads and follows. Her classes are some of the best for connection I've ever taken.

At the moment I'm swamped with stuff to do before next weekend, but I don't expect that you're physically up to dance lessons for a few weeks anyways. At some time in the future, I'd be happy to try to help you "figure it out". It's generally a lot easier teaching a follower than a leader, but when the time comes, we can see how it goes. I primarily know the standard Gaskells dances and swing.

[msde.livejournal.com]

I took ballroom one summer and I'm one of those guys who intensely disliked it. The environment was very hostile to guys who weren't at least an intermediate level. It's mostly the nature of leading/following, and a lack of women.

1) You can be relatively inexperienced and follow, but have a good time if the leader is skilled. The converse is not true.

2) When there aren't enough women to go around, the women are going to pick the best leaders when at all possible. They're here to have fun, so it's hard to blame them, since they're never lacking for better leaders than me.

3) I suck at leading, since I've only taken a couple months of ballroom. This should surprise no one.

4) My leading skills weren't improving much, because it's difficult to get anyone to follow a beginner.

The actual dancing lesson parts was enjoyable, just not the annoying part where I had to find a way to practice. I might try it again now that I have a fiancee.

[terpsichoros.livejournal.com]

Where are you dancing that there's a shortage of women? I've heard that the local swing-dance scene gets that way sometimes, but otherwise, dancing almost always has many more women than men.

Related Reading

[terpsichoros.livejournal.com]

Why Men Won't Dance

Re: Related Reading

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

This is a really, really good article. I hadn't seen it before. Thank you!

[blacksheep-lj.livejournal.com]

My husband and I have gone through a lot of phases of trying to close the gap between my long history of dancing and his complete dislike for it.

I couldn't understand it for a long time, largely because it is such a language for me - I express myself very physically and I am very aware of my movements. I have always danced - starting at age three with 10 years of ballet, a couple of years of ballroom cotillion in junior high and more recently Starry Plough, Gaskells and Peers.

He has taken lessons, been to various events, and gotten at least a bit more comfortable with it than he was originally (he actually literally FLED once when I dragged him out to dance in a circle of people "freestyling" at a friends wedding). However, he still doesn't like it.

I do love the exchange of energy between partners in good dancing, and wish I could share that with him, but I've become aware that it's just not the same for him, and that's OK. I have finally realized that I can enjoy dancing without him and that it's ok for both of us.

I totally hear what you're saying, Noah, and I can completely respect your position. You have tried, and it just doesn't compel you. That's OK.

[monkey587.livejournal.com]

I do love the exchange of energy between partners in good dancing, and wish I could share that with him, but I've become aware that it's just not the same for him, and that's OK. I have finally realized that I can enjoy dancing without him and that it's ok for both of us.

Thank you for saying this. Now, please publish it and go talk about it on Oprah or something so the rest of the world will get a bit of your clue.

[elf]

If/when you decide you want another try at dancing, let me know. I believe (and this has been supported by others) that I'm a fairly decent intermediate guide; I've helped several people at the Plough with footwork & related things (like, how to get the footwork straight while you're learning some new figure that involves your left arm moving in a direction nature never intended).

I jig, reel, waltz, and polka just fine. I don't hornpipe or schottische worth a damn, and sit out those dances, and can't mazurka at all, although I've been dragged through a few of them by people who seem to think that polka skills will cross over.

They're welcome to their delusions; I continue not to mazurka.

I can teach the parts I know because I learn footwork slowly, and with great repetition: I can't count how many months it took me to get the rise & grind down, but I still have problems doing it during the Haymaker's jig, because I'd been doing it wrong for years. But dammit, now I know every bit of balance & shifting it takes to do a clean rise & grind. (Can't always *do* it, but I always know where I fell short.)

Can't really help with the "bumping into" problems, though. That's got more to do with overcrowded dance halls & other beginning dancers than any skill you could acquire.

"If you'd just do it right it wouldn't frustrate you"
Aww, how sweet. I'm sure that's true. And if I'd just get a job, I wouldn't have all these money issues.

When you want the "do what comes naturally" people to shut up, try asking detailed questions. "It's not natural to me. So, okay, I lift up this foot--where do I balance while I'm doing that? On the middle of the other foot? Or the tip? Do I shift my leg only when I move, or swivel my whole torso?"

Odds are, they don't know. And if they do, you get useful advice instead of "just go with the music."

[miss-mimsy.livejournal.com]

I remember this discussion, in fact I think I have the proto text of this post in an e-mail you sent me.

Bluntly (and bitterly put, I know) explaining to you why you just aren't getting dancing is much like trying to explain to my ex why I can be poly and still love him. It doesn't matter how I say it or how many different ways I put it, nothing I say will convince you that you aren't on target. Thus, you are right. I don't have to agree with you, but you are so sure you are right that I doubt I could convinice you otherwise. I mean, people still believe the world is flat even though we have been to the moon. If they can be stubborn about something so huge, why can't you be stubborn about dancing?

That would be why I haven't bothered you about dancing in a long time, what would be the point, you aren't any fun to dance with because you dislike it so intently. (And yes, I did ditch you for a dance, but I still say being sick in the bathroom counts as a good reason to flake.) You are fun for other things, so I stick with the folks who like to dance and spent time doing the other things with you.

Why do I dance? I could I say I dance with people for the foreplay aspect, but I don't really. I have only dated two dance partners and only one of them became a successful relationship.

I dance because it feels good, it is exercise that I enjoy and I like the feeling of moving my body with another person. I do it for the connection. If you don't get the connection, then you won't see the appeal. It is regrettable that the connection during dancing never opened up for you.

But I think that is okay, I believe you get a similar connection in other ways that are just as nifty. So the trick is to either quit dating gals that dance or show said gals your favored avenues for connection that don't involve dancing.

[neverjaunty.livejournal.com]

Why is it "stubborn" to refuse to do something just because other people want you to?

[katharos.livejournal.com]

Heh. Dance bitterness. I expect Jesse agrees with you about a lot of this. But we still have fun dancing at weddings, just not anything that anyone else would recognize as a 'style' of dance. We've kinda figured out some spins, and I bounce around badly approximating a double Lindy or some kind of skip while he tries to walk in the same direction that I'm moving in. And we take turns leading every other step it seems like. Frequently we disagree about who's leading at any given moment, sometimes we step on each others feet, and sometimes we come to an abrupt stop. And sometimes I think we look cool. This does not mean we actually look cool, but don't shatter my illusions. ;-)

I used to get annoyed when we ran into each other, and then Jesse would get frustrated, and we would stop dancing, and sometimes we would fight. Even though I'm not a wonderful dancer, I do like dancing, so now when we run into each other I just burst out giggling (at both of us) and we start dancing again. This process will probably not work for you. :-D Unless you want to try dancing with me, but I might break your foot, and you've had enough injuries for a while.

Someday I may learn to formally dance, but as I agree that lessons aren't that much fun, probably no time soon.

[terpsichoros.livejournal.com]

Perhaps surprisingly, my experiences are similar to yours.

I still have a hard time learning new footwork (as opposed to new patterns for "set" dances). I haven't been able to learn salsa despite a number of attempts with good teachers, and some of my incapacity with swing dancing is footwork difficulty. I've also found that a lot of dance teaching doesn't work well for me; nor for others. There are a lot of second-rate dance teachers, but it seems that only a certain percentage of people can grok when dance is taught in the usual ways.

I did learn to dance at the Starry Plough, though John wasn't teaching beginning when I did. I also learned to waltz mostly there, though the Gaskell's class helped a lot.

There are several different skills in dancing, and some people are better than others with each of them. In particular, the skills that make one good at following the patterns of Irish ceili or English Country dance or square dancing, etc., are not at all the same as those which make one good at the footwork for Irish ceili or Irish step, or ballroom dancing. Leading and following are also separate skills from both of the above and from each other.

[bayareajenn.livejournal.com]

What is the Plough? Seems like a bunch of you folks get together and go there every so often. Is it fun? Can I go? When do you all go?

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

Irish dancing, Monday nights, Berkeley.

"Starry Plough".

Not sure it's got a web site, but the phone book will know.

[veryloki.livejournal.com]

If dancing doesn't appeal to you particularly, I would say just do what you enjoy instead. Having other people pressure you to learn how to dance is unlikely to provide sufficient (and sufficiently intense) motivation for you to get good at it.

I experienced everything you mentioned (well, except for the anger), during the six months or so I spent trying to become good enough at dancing that I wasn't embarrassed to ask others to dance. But I persisted because I really _liked_ it, and wanted to get better.

Without this liking of it, there is no way I would have put up with all the difficulties, no matter who else wanted me to learn how to dance.

[neverjaunty.livejournal.com]

No, the problem with just becoming an "I don't dance" guy again is that friends and girlfriends will attempt to violently convert you.

Think of it as a jerk filter. Anyone whose attitude about, well, any activity is "But I like it, so you should too! And I'll bug you until you give in!" is probably self-centered and more than a little clueless.

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

Think of it as a jerk filter. Anyone whose attitude about, well, any activity is "But I like it, so you should too! And I'll bug you until you give in!" is probably self-centered and more than a little clueless.

And nearly omnipresent. Did I mention I no longer frequent those social groups?

[chanson.livejournal.com]

I'll dance at an industrial club, to something appropriately stompy, after a drink or two. I occasionally danced at a fratboy club back in Illinois, which was OK but overall much less fun.

However, I had to figure out how I was going to do it first and then do it in an environment where I just didn't give a damn. And it only happens when the mood strikes me just right - sometimes I've gone to clubs and wanted to dance but just not been able to bring myself to do it.

So almost 100% of the time, I Don't Dance. And I don't blame anyone else for Not Dancing either.

[tsgeisel.livejournal.com]

My ability to dance at Gaskells was honed over many years of taking the long afternoon lessons, and then talking to anyone who would listen to me, about the philosophy of dancing and trying to turn their visual style into my kinesthetic learning style.

For many years all I did at Gaskells were Schottishes, set dances, and then I faked my way through Congress of Vienna. Actually, I faked my way through the closed waltz bits - open waltz is easy, and the middle bits are actually rather easy to learn.

In the process, I also took many swing lessons from many, many different teachers. And I did even take some classes at the Starlite Ballroom, but learned that lesson rather quickly.

If you dislike dancing, perhaps it's just a learning style thing - that you haven't found the right teacher. But, like any physical activity, there is a certain joy in challenging your body to do something, and then getting it to do so. The fact that you do it in close contact with someone else - so much the better.

[lintqueen.livejournal.com]

Goodness. Y'all have sucky dance instructors out there. ;-)

When I've taught folks (boys and girls) to waltz (for example), I've started with:

"Ok, now the basic pattern that the steps make on the floor is a box. You'll always alternate feet when you're stepping, so if you get stuck, remember that. Now, stand beside me and step forward with your left foot. That's the "upper left hand corner" of our box. Now step with your right foot diagonally to the right (to what would be the upper right hand corner of the box"

The whole time I'm doing it slowly with them, right beside them. As we work our way through the box step, I'll eventually move (while calling left-right-together; right-left-together) in front of them (still not touching) so they can see what it looks like with a partner.

Only after the basic steps (and a few variants, like a simple turn) have been mastered (and they are comfortable doing it to music) do I ever go on with any more fancypants stuff.

And assuming that someone knows another, similar, dance is just silly.

Sorry, Noah -- you've had stinky teachers.

OTOH, I've never assumed any of the boys I've dated will ever want to learn to dance, though mine surprised me a few weekends ago by dancing with me in a parking lot (there was beach music playing and I *love* to shag).

:)

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

Goodness. Y'all have sucky dance instructors out there. ;-)

Yes. We really do. People spend a lot of time claiming otherwise. However, none can give a studio or person that answers this question: "so who is a good, competent dance instructor within 40 miles of where I lived, that is currently teaching ballroom-type and accepting new stuidents?"

It's like auto mechanics. We all know they basically all suck in this area, but we seem to be squeamish, as a group, about saying so.

[thomb.livejournal.com]

Drm. I think there are three reasons all at work here.

First, Americans believe you have to be really good at a thing before it's worth doing. So Americans have stopped singing in public, most Americans won't give a short speech to save their life, people are ashamed of their poems, and people see no point in dancing unless you're good at it.

Second, dancing is queer. For whatever reason, being a good dancer is something a lot of straight men fear. Being a good dancer is just too gay, and so all kinds of straight men refuse to do it, or belittle it, or will do it provided they aren't detected as caring about it. The roots of homophobia are extremely deep even for straight men who have no actual "problems" with gay people. If you would be even a teeny bit embarrassed for someone to think you were gay--if you think it's important to correct such a mistake from any corner--then there is going to be quite strong pressure not to seem like dancing is important. And that cultural force inhibits dancing, even for those straight men who are not ashamed to say they love to dance.

And third, the assumption that if something is going to be fun, it will be fun quickly. Imagine how much fun it must be to ace a complicated high bar routine (yay Igor Cassina!). How much time and effort went into that?!

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether to take these reasons as being directed at me, specifically. I'll respond as though that were true, but without taking offense, and wait to perhaps be corrected.

The first item may well be true. American dancers are a very competitive lot, by and large, which certainly reduces the fun of doing something tolerably/badly in public.

I consider myself as having been im mune to the second point, not because I'm Just That Cool, but rather because it is blatantly and utterly untrue in all my social circles for the last 10+ years, and it's not something I can ever recall hearing stated or significantly implied.

The third could easily be the case. I put over two years into dancing (mostly at the Plough and Starlight Ballroom, with brief excursions to several other places), and became noticeably (but not unusually) sought-out as a partner in several dances. However, the high bar routine is certainly a work of vastly greater than average competence, while my dance was, well, basically competent. If two years was too soon to expect actual fun, then I gave up too soon. That would contradict things that various dancers said to me, but so did a lot of conditions at dance venues.

(edited and moved)

[toxgunn.livejournal.com]

In short - bravo!
At length, I moved my vitriol to http://www.livejournal.com/users/toxgunn/24799.html rather than spam here.

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering if your list of instructors included Stan Isaacs and Pomander Club classes? Not that it's available to you now, because Stan stopped teaching, but I found that to be the single best instruction solution for vintage dancing. Stan was all of the things you mentioned wanting, especially in that he didn't assume any knowledge of what something looked like. He also taught real world skills like, "What if everyone is dancing too fast for me?" or "What if I or my partner is dizzy?" or "How can I suck and still enjoy tihs?"

I used to say that Stan's classes were a great place to suck at something, because he is a completely no-pressure, high comfort level instructor. He's also an amazingly cool old-school mega-geek.

Unfortunately, Pomander club weekly classes ended some time ago, after years and years, and he no longer teaches regularly. If he ever does again, and this ever comes up again, I would suggest trying Stan's instruction out.

[meowlzebub.livejournal.com]

Late contribution, but better than never.

Thanks for not smacking me when I asked you if you dance =) For the record, me and structured dancing don't really get along well. I totally suck at it most of the time =) The times when I don't suck at it are the times when I don't give a fuck if I'm doing it well and my partner doesn't either. I really am just having fun, and we laugh at our mistakes (plenty to laugh at).

The dancing I enjoy, I learned at CMA. Every night at CMA events, there is a huge bonfire called the Revel Fire. Different sorts of folks turn up at Revel. Some drum, some dance, some stand around watching, some just listen and trance to the fire and drums. I started off exceedingly shy and just listened. Then later, a really awesome guy lent me his drum and I was hooked on drumming for several years. After years of watching other folks dance, and having learned that at CMA most dancing is a spiritual/trance/meditative experience, I decided to try it myself. A proper sampling of the alcohol being passed around loosened me up enough to actually try it. (I place more restrictions on myself than anyone else possibly could, and I'm good at it)

I liked it enough to try to bring my experience home with me and test it out in clubs that play Goth, Industrial or other cool electronica. There are good clubs for this and there are sucky clubs for this. Meat market clubs suck. But occasionally I'll find a club where people go to trance. Those are the good ones. Dancing for trance is, in my experience, always solitary. I need lots of open space so that I don't hit people and they don't hit me. Nothing is more distracting to trance than having to pay attention to the other people around you. I prefer to dance with my eyes closed, so open spaces are a must. Plenty of that at home, but the neighbors would probably complain if I made the music loud enough to feel in my bones =)

Now that I've moved, I really didn't think it would be so incredibly difficult to find someone to go with me to dance. I may dance solitary, but I prefer to go with one or more others. So, when I've asked folks here if they dance, everyone seems to think I'm talking about structured ballroomish type dancing. Why is that? I am so not talking about that type of dancing. And by posting this here, I am also not asking you for anything. Just commenting.

[angelbob.livejournal.com]

I know a few people who seem to be going for the kind of dance you're talking about. Most of them seem to go to Death Guild on Monday nights in SF. You could give 'em a try.

Also, I know a few bellydancers, who sometimes dance more like that, but again, that's more formal and structured even if it's solitary.