A Request to Women Working in Tech

[noahgibbs]

A friend recently said something about which, as Shanna's father, I feel conflicted.

She said that as a woman working in technology, she wouldn't recommend that other women enter the field. She's a system administrator. So, while she's not a computer programmer like myself, she's in a very similar field with mostly similar interpersonal dynamics. That is to say, what she says almost certainly applies to my field if it applies to hers. And as an actual woman working in technology, her experience is going to be significantly more accurate than my from-the-outside impressions.

I'm not going to repeat her reasons here. Rather, I'd be very curious whether other women working in technical fields, especially system administration and/or programming, felt the same way. Anybody care to comment? When you comment, please let me know what you do/did in technology. For some of you, I'll know offhand. For many of you, I'll have forgotten. For anybody who comments, there may be other readers who don't know/remember.

Anonymous comments are turned on here. Technically I *do* log IPs and I don't see a quick way to turn it off just for this post, but you have my word that I won't attempt to match up anybody anonymous here with any specific person. If you're really worried for some reason, there are many fine technical measures to make that tracking ineffective at finding you.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm kinda surprised there aren't more.

Yeah, shocking. When other women on the job are so supportive they refer to women as "moos" you'd think the power of the sisterhood would have conquered sexism by now.

[agent_dani]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but wanted to comment here as you raised some great points.

My wife has had experiences such as the answers she gave not being accepted but if her male boss told the questioner the same answer it was accepted without any remark. Quite often she only knew about it because she and her boss compared, which helped illustrate a way sexism can be hidden as well.

She was doing desktop and server administration in a physical plant of a large public university and pornography was rampant there. That, along with what you state, has made me appreciate a policy of my current employer (another large, public university) where that's one of the easy get-fired offenses.

I respectfully disagree

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Here via geekfeminism

I've been a systems administrator for 12 years and have not encountered any sexism from my colleagues in the workplace. I have never had my professional competence questioned by colleagues because I'm female, although it has happened a multitude of times from end users. I have encountered porn as part of supporting various environments, but I have never ever witnessed it being exchanged by colleagues or had it foisted upon me by them. I have never had any patronising remarks about being "on the rag" or any such thing. I do make my threshold for "battle of the sexes" jokes that are the usual fare at any level of society clear - i.e. non-existent - but I'm willing to joke and laugh with the guys. I encountered a hell of a lot more overt sexism and exposure to pornography in my former life in the printing trade.

Yes, there are fuckheads out there, but I also happen to believe there are no more fuckheads in IT than there are in any other profession.

This is NOT to say that there is no sexism in IT. As well as the overt kind, which you will encounter more or less of depending on the actual industry you're embedded in as a sysadmin (I work in aviation, but formerly worked in tertiary institutions), there are all the myriad subtle ways of telling girls/women that they are not suited to be systems administrators. Skills that you require to be a good administrator include the following:

* The willingness to tinker and experiment to figure out how something works. How often are girls given lego, electrical kits, robot kits, models to assemble? How soon do they get lessons on practical problem-solving skills?

* The ability to appropriately say that you don't know enough about X, but you'll be able to find out and provide proper input in Y time. Girls get programmed to admit ignorance much more readily than men do. Simply saying you "don't know" when asked about something technical is not a way to gain respect. (Of course, tipping over to the other extreme and bullshitting that you know everything means you're a cowboy or a particular kind of "consultant"

* Related to the above, the ability to project confidence that you know what you are doing. Girls and women are to often educated to soften their words, to compromise even when they are right, to not sound too definite for fear of sounding "aggressive". However, as part of projecting that confidence, you have to be able to not alienate certain masculine egos for fear of being a "bitch" or a "harpy" or "strident". It can be done, as I can attest.

* The ability to put your hand up when you've cocked up, but to be able to strategise ways of FIXING what went wrong. Girls get penalised much more at an early age for being "clumsy" or "illogical" or "untechnical/unscientific", when of course they aren't any more likely to make technical mistakes than men are. They are also more encouraged to give up and let the "more competent" people take over.

* Much of successful systems administration requires good communication, which women are supposed to be better at. However, we need to develop that confident and knowledgeable style, which again, is something we can need to work hard to develop (I can attest to that as well). We do need to blow our own trumpets - again, not something we're often programmed to do - not at the expense of the rest of the team, but also so that our contribution is being acknowledged by those around us. Guys seem to be socialised to do that from the get-go.

* Obviously we need to be unafraid of the geek label and not adverse to being around geeky people (not the first choice of career for those who are interested in glamour or creativity)

With all that in mind, I think more women SHOULD get into systems administration. It really bugs me that in 12 years and a number of jobs, I can count the number of female sys admins I've encountered personally on one hand (one of whom I interviewed for a job recently). It really is despicable. And while there are all those reasons I observed for women being undermined in terms of choosing IT careers, my experience is that the limiting socialisation factors don't quite add up to the paucity of women in IT.

(cont...)

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

(..from above)

It is not a vile hotbed of stupid blokes - I've had a hell of a lot worse in my pre-IT life. So why is the perception of IT so bad? Because I'm sure the perception issue is a significant chunk of the reason there are so few of us there. Is there a perception that the guys are all sexist fuckheads who watch porn all day while scoffing their cheetos and refusing to bathe? Are we so afraid of being labelled "geeks"? Sure, surmounting the early disadvantages in learning technical and certain communication skills is tough enough. But what else is the problem?

I enjoy my work, and wish there were more women in it. My view is, if you can handle Word macros (which any secretary can), you can handle managing a data centre, given the right training. I think it is a great trade for women, because the culture is actually fairly accepting compared to plenty of blue-collar work, the work is interesting, and it pays bloody well.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

I have some issues with your generalization that women who have good sysadmin skills as you outline them don't suffer from sexism. I have them and I do still see it in my workplace. I am a geek, I have always been a geek.

When I was a manager and not a tech, yes, I saw less of it. But as a tech it is pervasive. And I'm really confused how you can equate handling Word macros with managing hundreds or thousands of servers, or petabytes of storage like I do.

[rightkindofme.livejournal.com]

Wait a minute. You say, "Related to the above, the ability to project confidence that you know what you are doing. Girls and women are to often educated to soften their words, to compromise even when they are right, to not sound too definite for fear of sounding "aggressive". However, as part of projecting that confidence, you have to be able to not alienate certain masculine egos for fear of being a "bitch" or a "harpy" or "strident". It can be done, as I can attest."

And then say that you haven't encountered sexism? You have to very carefully work to appear just strong enough but not too strong so that you sound like a bitch, a harpy, or strident... and that's not sexism? I've never encountered a man who worried about any of those things.

[allochthon.livejournal.com]

"I've never encountered a man who worried about any of those things."

Yes, this.

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Erm, that's exactly what I'm saying. That it's sexism that projects those expectations on you. And yes, I haven't encountered overt sexist behaviour from my colleagues; however, just like every other woman, I'm not immune to the endemic and institutionalised kind. Obviously I didn't highlight that aspect well enough.

I wouldn't work in an team environment where I had to sit there modifying my every utterance to be "acceptable" (and my colleagues can vouch for that), but I do do it when dealing in a political sense with management and outsiders (vendors, customers, etc).

It galls me as a feminist, and hello, a woman myself, that women are expected and programmed to take extra consideration to how we come across, but in those specific employment circumstances for me, I don't feel I compromise myself any more compared to how we compromise ourselves in various ways to work for others in a capitalist society. However, we ALL have our limits as to how much of that compromise we feel we have to make (don't swear at the customers, don't discuss religion or national politics, yadda yadda); I'm lucky that in my IT experience, my compromises as a woman have not been that qualitatively different to my compromises as an individual. It's a line that hasn't yet been crossed anywhere I've worked, and I hope it never is.

On the rare occasions when someone is blatantly sexist to my face (so far, only end users and customers), I have no hesitation in telling them to step the fuck off. I also have no hesitation for advocating for other women (and nationalities) whose personal style is not so confrontational as the default working culture in some organisations I've worked in.

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

I never said that good sysadmin skills mean you're immune to sexism. I was reflecting on why women don't seem to consider systems administration as an actual career choice (hell, I fell into it by accident) - the attributes I listed were more about explaining why we don't have the early training to think of it as a first-choice career, or, when opportunities present themselves, more women don't take the next step. I know of multitudes of women working on IT helpdesks, and then that drops by a factor of at least 20 when it comes to stepping into something like desktop support. That's a real glass ceiling.

As for my obviously bad analogy, obviously dealing with Word macros and managing thousands of servers are very different in terms of actual skillsets and scale. I mean, of course. But if you can troubleshoot, analyse, experiment, solve the problem, implement solutions reliably and are not freaked out by the idea of technology, then yes, those are the base skills that can help you run a datacentre. Ok, it's challenging work and requires good analysis and organisational skills, but it really isn't rocket science.

The best initiative I saw in getting women into IT was when a law firm I worked for was going to make scores of secretaries redundant. Instead of doing so, they were offered training in desktop support to assist with the transition to the new IT infrastructure (this was in the late 90s, so it was email on all the desktops for the first time and yadda yadda). They knew the environment, they knew the desktop packages (Word Perfect and Lotus Notes in those days), and with being given a bit of hardware troubleshooting skill (and many of them already had a decent skillset), they were bloody excellent. As far as I know, the majority of them are still working in some kind of IT-related field in a plethora of other organisations. Their previous experience was directly translatable to their new role, and they really did run with it when they realised it wasn't mystical techno-incantations that makes IT work.

I think the caves of techno-gollumhood are probably some of the worst legacies of male geek culture in terms of women thinking it requires arcane skills to do the work - I mean, hell, so many computer science courses still require advanced maths as a prerequisite when the only maths I've ever used in admin work is a bit of binary to figure out subnet masks. Not that women aren't capable of advanced maths either, but again, it's that early programming to make us believe we can't problem-solve or think analytically.

[phi]

Here via a link from vito_excalibur

My degree is in electrical engineering, and I've worked as a programmer at a startup, as the hardware wrangler for a lab full of programmers/roboticists, and as a satellite designer. I'm currently a full-time student hoping to eventually earn a doctorate in EE.

I definitely wouldn't discourage or turn away a girl or young woman interested in tech, but I would strongly suggest she consider newer fields, which tend to be populated by younger people, and are therefore usually less heinous than older fields. I'd also advise any young woman interested in tech to develop a skin like rhinoceros hide, to practice being assertive and aggressive so she doesn't get stomped on, and to start building a support network of other women in tech right now.

I do get the impression that female programmers are treated better than female QA analysts, who are treated better than female sysadmins, but I've never worked in ops, and only have second-hand stories to go on. And while my time as a programmer and as the lab hardware wrangler were mostly pleasant, they weren't exactly the happy post-feminist sexism-free utopia that my male coworkers thought it was. (protip: if you only have one female employee, and you take your entire company out to a mandatory celebratory dinner, it's really poor form to bitch about how your date last weekend refused to put out even though you took her to the fanciest most expensive cocktail bar in town)

I would very much warn away any woman considering working in aerospace in any capacity - ops, software, hardware, mechanical, propulsion, whatever. The whole industry is rotten, and the two years I worked in the industry nearly destroyed me. I was singled out for criticism even when my work was perfect, even when my male coworkers fucked up and admitted it, even when the technicians under my authority reported favorably on my technological and managerial skill. One of the system leads I reported to would repeatedly tell 'er jokes and 'that's what she said' jokes, all the time. One coworker referred to me as "Obama girl" both to my face, and when talking about me or my work to other colleagues, for about six months straight, with no consequences. Another coworker referred to women as cunts during breaks (but never on the clock so his supe refused to reprimand him). Another insisted that women only go to college to find a husband. No matter what I wore, I would get negative comments: "Nice legs. Hoping it'll distract the client from your presentation?" "Why do you dress so mannish?" "You should wear your hair down, it's sexier than when you've got it all bunned up" "For god's sake, put your hair up! What if it brushes a CCA and shorts something!" "Oooh, all made up, got a hot date tonight?" "You don't wear enough makeup. It intimidates the clients." When I got married, two male coworkers commented on how they expected the quality of my work to decrease since I'd be distracted planning what to cook for dinner for my husband. It was hellish, and from what my peers at other companies have told me, my experiences were in no way unusual, and in fact, were mild compared to what women working for the Big Three (Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon) endure.

[(Anonymous)]

WOW. This really bothers me. I understand that there may be extenuating circumstances, but this kind of wording applied to any new mother is problematic.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

I worked from 93 to last year as a programmer/developer/systems consultant (had all those job titles and probably more. Some were 'senior' :-) ) I will first of all say that I am in the UK, not the US, so maybe things are different.

I have never experienced anything I can call direct sexism - I had one (American) trader (I have worked contract in investment banking a lot) consider me too agressive, but that might or might not be with an unspoken "for a woman", personally I think it was just more "for a techie", as traditionally most tech staff in banking are rather meek, at least to the traders faces.

I've not often worked with any other female programmers, and I've never worked with one who was on my own level, in terms of capabilities, they have always been much less experienced - barring that in my very first job out of university there was one woman developer on the team and of course at that point she was a good bit more experienced than I. Of course I have also worked with a lot of men who were less experienced - or just less capable, as well as those who are in some realm of uber-geekness and ability to which I would never aspire nor reach.

I was not/am not the kind to program in my spare time (at least not after the age of about 19) and had no innate fascination left after so long in the field. I started programming at 9, on ZX80s, then Spectrums (BASIC, machine code), did an honours degree in Comp Sci, then did Cobol, moving into VB onto Access/Oracle/SQL server, ending up a C# Winforms (onto various databases) developer. I hated web stuff of any sort, just seemed too hacky, overly complex for no good reason, paid less and had a far lower skill level in the personnel particularlarly in the database design area (in general - some were excellent). So, I did it for basically 30 years. Well enough!

I have packed it in because I am fed up writing the same apps over and over in ever-more-quickly-changing development toolset. It's change for the sake of it a lot of it, the illusion of progress - and ensures that you are never better than you were 5 years after you started. Excellent when you are a young 'un/newbie, but frustrating if you'd just like to build a reliable toolset/framework to help you get the job (and future jobs) done efficiently and effectively. Also, I got fed up trying to convince people to adopt certain practices/methods/ways of thinking/working/coding and have then just really not get it....only to find the whole damn world jumping up and down in great excitement 5-10 years later about the exact same things - though the jargon is often different. (e.g. I've been what would be called a Test Driven Developer since my 2nd university assignment in oh, early 1999....). Mainly I found it amusing, but it did start to wear me down.

My frustrations with the profession are not connected with my being female, and I have always got pretty much top money for what I do. In the cases (perm jobs) where I thought that I wasn't getting market, I have put that to the employer and they've either capitulated or I have just left and gone elsewhere. Though I get the impression that maybe in the UK we switch jobs more happily because we don't have all the health care plan hassle that you guys in the US have.

I wouldn't recommend the profession as is to ANYONE, male or female, unless they really did have a deep fascination with the tech for its own sake, or a specific subject areas that they were really interested in and for which they wanted to develop software for FOR THEMSELVES, and could see themselves developing all day then doing more of their own stuff on the commute and more when they got home.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

True. And I never have either. See my fuller comment below where I do mention being found to be "too agressive". I never let it affect my behaviour that I know of (to be honest, I'd be hard-pushed to, I'm Scotish, and we are just a little bit more excitable than the English :-) )

[woodpijn.livejournal.com]

(Here via andrewducker)

I've been a programmer for six years, and haven't encountered any sexism at work. I've even had a baby recently and am planning to go back part-time after my maternity leave, and haven't encountered any negativity about any of that.

I wonder if there's a US/UK difference here? I've seen a lot of people online talking about what a sexist industry IT is, and I think they're mostly American.

Of course there's a very skewed gender ratio, but I haven't experienced the discrimination, assumptions of incompetence, harrassment or male-locker-room banter which other people on this thread have mentioned. And I'd expect to get the latter two more in other industries. In my experience geeks just don't do that kind of sexually aggressive or intimidating interaction (perhaps because they/we are often a bit shy?)

I've often been the only woman in a room full of programmers and hardly even realised; but I think I'd be more likely to feel uncomfortable if I were the only woman in a room full of salesmen or lawyers or manual labourers.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

(Here via andrewducker too...)

And I'm not female, so can't comment, but was reminded of this talk by Jeri Ellsworth about her do-it-yourself approach to having a life in the tech world. An approach not suited to everyone I'm sure, but it shows there's an alternative to signing up to corporate life. See...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1053309060448851979#

[dommy-nick.livejournal.com]

(Also here via andrewducker)

I'm a Civil Engineer and have worked both out on construction sites and in design offices. I have encountered sexism working on sites but noted the following:

1) The guys under 40 were fine with working with me as they'd grown up with women as equals.

2) Men over 55 had a tendency to act in an avuncular manner, which was fine as I was learning my trade at the time and needed the extra help.

3) The only other woman on site was very defensive of her position and unhelpful to the point of being obstructive.

4) I had to raise several sexism complaints: 1 engineer who refused to speak to me because I was female (and he was a tit), 1 engineer who bullied me constantly because he was from Iran and thought women should be chained to the kitchen sink and didn't like them in the workplace and 1 guy with no engineering qualifications who fixated on me as I spoke to him as a person, so that meant I was after his body.

This site was 10 years ago and the sites I've worked on more recently have all been fine with no instances of sexism directed at me. That said, it could be because I have bright green hair which makes people stop thinking in their normal way and makes them treat me as a person instead of a gender, whcih makes a lot of difference. Although the more recent sites, I've had a lot more knowledge, so am often the one making the decisions, so it's wise for the guys not to piss me off. It still happens though, but only one day in 2 years, so there are improvements.

In the design office, I'm a specialist in my field of Highway Design and have no problems with sexism. That could be because I have been been working remotely for the last 4.5 years with only 1 colleague (also female and good at her job) and the office I share with other people is filled with people approaching retirement.

So, I think sexism is a lot less than it was. There are still hotbeds of it and certain companies are rife with it. In a reasonable or good economic climate, I'd advise people encountering sexism from either side to leave and find another job, but that's pretty difficult at the moment. Oh yes, and no one has ever said to me that I was moody because of the time of the month. One site guy said it behind my back once but I was going through a very horrible divorce at the time and was only barely holding on to being able to do my job by the skin of my teeth anyway.

I'm not married (done that, got divorced), I don't have kids and don't plan to have any. I'm in my mid 30s so am approaching the point where, with luck, people stop asking if I'll have kids and start commiserating with me about not having them. I don't fit into the typical female role in so many ways.

Anyway, there is one good thing about working in a male dominated profession. There's never a queue for the Ladies loo.

Dommy_nick

Programming is becoming like math

[squirrellyq.livejournal.com]

Got here via a link from a repost on Geek Feminism. This comment kind of grew on me. I hope I haven't belabored the point or wandered to far into teaching my elders to suck eggs.

I'm currently a grad student in industrial engineering (IE), so my perspective is a little skew to most other commentators. The most consistent advice I get from practicing IEs (alumni, ex-coworkers) is to acquire IT skills. Most of them have to write programs for their job at least occasionally. Other technical fields seem to be the same way, even the biologists and sociologists. Programming is as important as math to any technical career nowadays.

In other words, programming and basic software development/engineering following the path of typing. They're going from the domain of specialists (secretaries/programmers) to standard knowledge work tools. Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the first step in analysis is data crunching. Right now, people can barely get away with requesting reports, but as time goes on, the time savings and flexibility from grabbing data directly seem to be becoming more important.

Then the raw data has to be processed. Sure, most of it can be done in Excel, but not all. Plus the programming to develop a good spreadsheet shouldn't be underestimated. The formulas are a declarative programming language even before adding VBA macros. All this is before you even start the analysis!

Right now you can often get away with doing the processing by hand (eg requesting reports, getting data from multiple sources, updating data by cut-and-paste from a new report, and cleaning it up in a spreadsheet), but the people who can automate it are already at a comparative advantage.

It's similar for the initial low-level number-crunching. The level of number-crunching that counts as low seems be increasing as well, if more slowly. That's where programming skills really seem to pay off. For example, serious statistics seem to be done in R/SAS/SPSS (pick one), and then the analyst works off their results.

Every year the advantages to automating data-processing and low-level number-crunching become larger. In my judgment, pretty soon anyone in my field who hasn't automated the initial steps will find themselves too slow to keep a job. Other fields are in different stages of the process, but IMO by the time your daughter enters the workforce, almost all STEM fields will have reached that point.

All of the above is for the engineer's own use. That's before you get to the people whose job is to build tools for others to use. That's where this stuff starts to blend in to IT, and you start working with the programmers. But the advice I've gotten suggests that companies often find it easier to train specialists in programming than programmers in the specialty -- probably because each IT project requires a different one. Also, that way you can stretch the actual programmers further (though amateur code probably gets frustrating).

From the comments, I gather that one of the prompts for this post is concern about how much to encourage an interest in programming/tech in your daughter. One of the best gifts my mother gave me was confidence in math. She had majored in math and physics, so she naturally tended towards playing math-y games with me when I was a preschooler. She is also the techy-er of my parents. I grew up thinking math was a normal interest for me to have.

If you can do the same with your daughter and programming, it will be of benefit to her regardless of her eventual career. She's young enough that encouraging an interest in programming is becoming a lot more like encouraging an interest in math than encouraging someone to become a mathematician. By the time she grows up, having programming skills will serve her well in most STEM fields -- even if the working conditions for women in IT still haven't improved.

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